Order of the Silver Gryphon - Mercy and Justice

A tall herald strides into the area holding a banner for the Order of the Silver Gryphon. In a booming voice he announces, "The Order of the Silver Gryphon is telling personal stories at the Hearthstone porch now. Come learn more about the individual members." Upon Completing his annuncement, he moves on through the town.

[Hearthstone, Front Porch]
Airy and open, the porch is enclosed by smooth, freshly painted white modwir up to a height of about four feet. As you ponder the sky-blue color of the ceiling and a lacework of deep green ivy that crisscrosses the open space between posts, the hubbub of the world beyond quickly fades away. Rocking chairs of various sizes are an inviting sight, and an elegant green marble arch provides a tantalizing view of the splendors inside the old manor. You also see a dune wolfhound, the Roelaren disk, a black-eared red and grey fox, a scorched oak sideboard with some stuff on it, a purple modwir bin, a doorman and the porch steps.
Also here: Issiah who is sitting, Greganth, Alosaka, Lord Umbazi, Lord Kothos, Goldstr, Dame Evia, Magister Raelee, Lady Peggyanne, Lady Misun, Avaia, Pukk who is sitting, Blaakthorne, Alisaire, Mariannetta, Willow Guardian Lehon who is sitting, Khazaann, Elbromo, Grand Lady Roelaren, Sir Balantine, Guarrin, Bernadette, Lord Lycurgus who is sitting, Birch Guardian Akenna, Sir Cryheart

You say, "Good crowd. Thank you all for coming."

You nod at Guarrin.

Guarrin says, "If we can get settled in, we'll start momentarily."

Speaking to Cryheart, Greganth says, "Always good to be seen."

Guarrin clears his throat.

Guarrin glances around the area.

Guarrin formally greets, "Welcome everyone and good evening, we will be discussing two virtues that may, or may not be closely related, depending upon perspective. Justice and Mercy. Specifically, in the context of chivalric tenets."

Guarrin continues, "I’d first like to define Justice and Mercy, as written by Sir Pyrrhon Von Kammersteyl, founder of the Golvern Star."

Guarrin says, "To Sir Pyrrhon, the sword is symbolic of justice and truth. Double bladed. A constant reminder."

Cryheart wipes some lemon filling off his face with his hand.

Guarrin says, "Justice. Be a paragon of justice in the world. But recognize that the sword of justice is a terrible thing and must be tempered with Mercy."

Guarrin says, "Mercy. Be merciful and compassionate in your dealings with others, especially those that do not follow the same path. Use this compassion to temper the other virtues, especially Justice."

Guarrin says, "Somethings to keep in mind as we discuss the topic."

Guarrin says, "Before we get into the discussion, a few words from Sir Geijon and Sir Cryheart."

Guarrin turns to face you.

You raise your hand.

Guarrin says, "Sir Geijon."

You say, "Those are th' basics of these tenets, but this will be a fluid conversation and we'd like active discussion while we traverse through scenarios, life lessons and events in yours and our lives."

You say, "More importantly we also want to illustrate the inverse of these qualities in vengence or revenge and savagry."

You say, "When has an act of mercy for the sake of justice turned madness in the face of revenge."

You say, "Food for thought, but lets begin."

Guarrin nods appreciatively to you.

You bow to Cryheart.

Cryheart forcefully crosses one arm over his kroderine plate and offers you a formal bow.

Speaking to Cryheart, Guarrin says, "Sir, the floor is yours."

Cryheart says, "My perspective as a knight might be different from most of ye."

Cryheart recites:

"Justice means upholding what is fair, decent, and right with dispersing what is right. It is the quality of being fair and reasonable. "

Cryheart recites:

"A knight must uphold Justice and seek to achieve the peace in all actions. No creature is above the laws of heaven and a knight will seek satisfaction of the law as it requires regardless of personal opinions or emotions. The law has no bias and only those who sit unfairly in judgment to apply the law harden their hearts to its true purpose. "

Guarrin nods in agreement at Cryheart.

Cryheart says, "As demonstrated a week for so ago when my Order refused to escort Malluch."

Cryheart recites:

"Mercy means having compassion or giving forgiveness towards someone who one has the power to punish. It forebears punishing even when justice demands it. "

Cryheart recites:

"A knight must know when to show Mercy to friends and enemies alike. In the pursuit of justice and victory there is a time for relenting to show strength through forgiveness. A truly strong individual shows strength in mercy because they will be able to overcome an adversary should they attempt to take advantage of one who is merciful."

Cryheart says, "Thank ye."

Guarrin nods in agreement at Cryheart.

Speaking appreciatively to Cryheart, Guarrin says, "Thank you Sir, wise words."

Guarrin says, "Now let's move onto the discussion. Please, as before, remember to raise your hand so we can try to keep this discussion moving and be respectful in your interactions."

Guarrin says, "Let's start with a question though."

Guarrin asks, "We've heard a few examples of Justice and Mercy. How would you define justice?"

Guarrin glances around the area.

Speaking to Falicor, Guarrin says, "Go ahead."

Falicor says, "Justified revenge, in essence."

Speaking to Falicor, Guarrin asks, "Revenge. Interesting. Can you elaborate?"

Falicor says, "When you take it upon yourself to mete out justice."

Falicor says, "One must have faith in your own actions."

Guarrin asks, "Interesting. Is it justice if it is personal?"

Guarrin nods at Falicor.

Falicor says, "It does not need to be personal, or impersonal."

Guarrin turns to face Alosaka.

Speaking to Alosaka, Guarrin asks, "Did you have your hand up?"

Alosaka says, "I think justice, in its most basic essence, is fairness, applied as broadly as possible to everyone within one's reach."

Guarrin asks, "Brother Kothos?"

You say, "Fairness still requires a certain aspect of decision, choice and judgment."

Kothos says, "It's the system that protects the members and groups in society from harm."

Speaking to Kothos, Guarrin says, "Ah, so there is a social aspect as well."

Kothos says, "And determines what constitutes a crime or an injury to them."

Kothos says, "It's not truly justice if it's not agreed upon by the morals of the group ascribed to it."

says, "Perhaps that is when it passes to be something else."

Guarrin nods encouragingly at Akenna.

Kothos quietly says, "Indeed."

Akenna says, "I believe that one has a basic sense of right and wrong. If one feels empowered to mete out Justice themselves, one should bear the consequences of those actions, fair or ill."

Alosaka asks, "Would we say, then, that an edict by the humans of the Turamzzyr Empire that takes land and wealth from elves is justice, if it is in accord with the humans of the empire?"

Kothos takes a drink from his ruby red wine.

Speaking to Akenna, Guarrin says, "So there is a personal obligation as well."

Speaking to Guarrin, Akenna says, "Of course."

Speaking to Akenna, Guarrin says, "Within the social agreement that was mentioned earlier perhaps."

Pukk says, "Justice is more of a moral concept. It is dictated by the society of the one that is giving out the justice."

Pukk says, "It is a ..."

Pukk says, "It is based on that persons convictions, rational and ethics."

Pukk says, "Law and if they believe in the gods and what their plan is."

Pukk says, "As was pointed out earlier."

Alosaka declares, "I believe there is such a thing as universal justice, beyond the laws of individual societies."

Pukk says, "If the imps take lands from the elves..the imps would think if justice."

Speaking to Alosaka, Guarrin says, "We can get back to that we had a few others with their hands up."

Pukk says, "Justice is a concept for our mind. It is what tries to hold us together and keep us from killing one another."

Pukk asks, "Is it justice that a rolton escapes from a hunter? Ii it justice that the hunter kills the rolton?"

Guarrin says, "So we have a social responsibility, and perhaps a moral and ethical obligation, personally."

Pukk says, "Depends on who is looking at it."

Pukk says, "That is all."

Kothos says, "Most members of a society benefit in some tacit or implicit way from belonging."

Speaking to Peggyanne, Guarrin asks, "You had your hand up I believe?"

Speaking to Guarrin, Peggyanne says, "Thank you Sir Guarrin that i did."

Speaking to Peggyanne, Guarrin says, "Please, call me Guarrin."

Peggyanne says, "I think it important to define justice as an ideal rather than a tangible thing...."

Speaking to Peggyanne, Guarrin asks, "Interesting. Can you elaborate?"

says, "Jusice is an ideal of satisfaction to an ends...."

Peggyanne says, "In that i mean.... an agreed upon end to some action."

Peggyanne says, "What was being discussed earlier i belive is more as Pukk put it morality."

Peggyanne says, "And common belief in a law."

Guarrin asks, "Meaning justice is the action by which a resolution is met? Or achieved?"

Peggyanne says, "Justice in my eyes is internal harmony with innate rights...."

Peggyanne says, "We as living beings.... have given rights."

Peggyanne says, "Rights that are innate to our being."

Peggyanne says, "Im stumbling on my words i appologize."

Cryheart says, "Ye are doing just fine."

Peggyanne says, "Im struggling to put it in words."

Speaking to Peggyanne, Guarrin says, "You're doing grand."

Speaking encouragingly to Peggyanne, Kothos says, "Not at all. It was interesting to hear."

Misun says, "Some things cannot be explained with words."

Peggyanne says, "I believe, that as living beings we are afforded certain rights to live and to better ourselves."

Peggyanne says, "If somone interferes with those rights."

Peggyanne says, "I see that as an injustice."

Peggyanne asks, "Does this make sense?"

Guarrin says, "It does."

Peggyanne says, "If say."

Peggyanne says, "I belive in a code of honor...."

Peggyanne says, "And we look at bringing "justice" to somone for violating that code of honor.... it may not be a question of thier rights being violated but rather thier code.... in which is a question of morality."

Guarrin nods understandingly at Peggyanne.

Guarrin says, "That almost touches upon one of the earlier questions."

Peggyanne says, "That is all i have to say i think."

Guarrin says, "A few others had their hands up."

Peggyanne says, "This is all of course opinionated."

Goldstr says, "An well said."

You say, "Fairness becomes norms, which amongst judgment are difficult things. It's why Mercy is such a close tenet to ensure we are balanced and calm in the situation."

Kothos says, "The arbiters of justice is a rather important definition, yes."

Speaking to Umbazi, Guarrin asks, "You had your hand up earlier, I believe?"

Umbazi says, "I don't think that I could say more that the others have not said already, and most eloquently."

Guarrin nods understandingly at Umbazi.

Speaking to Balantine, Guarrin asks, "You had your hand up as well?"

Balantine recites quietly:

"Perhaps my view summarizes what hae already been said, I would say, perhaps, that Justice is the fair application of a Law or Code to all those for which it applies, but there are several contexts..."

Balantine recites quietly:

"The Law or Code may be a legal system of a society or town... or it may be a broader moral code as in the Smuggler's Code of Rivers Rest or the Code of Chivalry"

Balantine recites quietly:

"But justice would mean the fair application of the Code or Law to all equally"

Evia says, "Equity."

You say, "We'll hold further questions outside of those in line before our next question."

You gaze up into the heavens.

Regwen says, "Impartial."

Guarrin says, "Yes, whether it is personal, the Code, or local laws there is importance in equitable enforcing of it."

Evia takes a drink from her ruby red wine.

You say, "Justice or the view of it tends to govern how people react or their behavior in instances of decisiveness."

Guarrin says, "Right, let's consider the other virtue for tonight. Mercy."

Guarrin says, "I haven't heard it mentioned specifically, although, perhaps hinted at with some descriptions."

Guarrin ponders.

Guarrin asks, "Perhaps there are some stories that exemplify justice and its relationship with mercy?"

Guarrin asks, "Is it connected to justice? Can one administer justice without considering mercy?"

Goldstr says, "Interedstin question."

Kothos says, "It would seem to me that justice, even if agreed upon by society, can often be imperfect. Mercy helps to reduce that potential bias."

Speaking to Kothos, Guarrin says, "Indeed, perhaps it is as Sir Pyrrhon said. Justice should be tempered with mercy."

Regwen says, "I think that justice is doled out without mercy in some plances."

Kothos says, "Being merciful isn't just good for mercy's sake. It validates your authority as -being- just."

Speaking to Regwen, Goldstr asks, "But den would justice have been served?"

You say, "I'll recall an instance when there is time."

Guarrin says, "Akenna, Alosaka then Falicor...then Sir Geijon."

Guarrin says, "And apologies if I've missed anyone."

Regwen says, "Keeping the good of the society and holding true to laws but with compassion.

Elbromo says, "Mercy must stand alone from Justice..for it to be it cannot be an automatic adjuct."

Elbromo says, "Or itwill be taken for granted."

Akenna says, "I believe that if you don't consider mercy, are you really upholding justice at all? While some may be undserving of it, sometimes people go against justice in the name of other virtues which we as a society uphold."

Akenna asks, "Is that not so?"

Speaking to Akenna, Guarrin asks, "The pursuit of justice with unjust intent or reasons?"

Guarrin says, "Is it still justice then..."

Speaking to Guarrin, Akenna says, "One could say they stole bread...but they did it to feed hungry bellies."

Akenna shrugs.

Akenna says, "Those of children.."

Guarrin says, "Perhaps the importance of mercy then, to be aware of the situation in addition to the law."

Guarrin says, "Alosaka was next."

Alosaka says, "You were very close, I think, Guarrin."

Alosaka eagerly says, "If the world were perfect, and if we could administer justice perfectly, then there would be no need for mercy. But we are imperfect, and we rely on laws for justice, laws that were crafted on general principle rather than any specific case. Mercy allows modulate the application of our laws and punishments to better fit the ideal of justice."

Evia says, "Mitigations."

Guarrin nods approvingly.

Speaking to Alosaka, Guarrin says, "Well said." .

Speaking to Alosaka, Kothos says, "Excellently stated, storyteller."

Jaysehn says, "Master Alosaka said it well....I'll only add what my mother taught us...."

Jaysehn says, "That Mercy was a gift. It was a shield, given to the powerful to weild against the dangers of their own authority."

Speaking to Jaysehn, Guarrin says, "Very wise words indeed."

Jaysehn says, "For the imperfections that Master Alosaka mentioned, only amplify as we gain power."

Jaysehn says, "That is all."

Blaakthorne says, "I was tinkin that mebbe the bread teef could make some form of restitution instead of goin to jail . Like mebbe werkin to pay it off in some way seepin floors er somepin."

Guarrin says, "Aye, that would perhaps be a good example of showing mercy."

Greganth asks, "I would counter that i such work was available prior to the theft of bread for food, would the theft be necessary, and if it were, is mercy required?"

Cryheart asks, "What if a father stole the bread for his poor family..as he could nae afford more due to excess taxes?"

Speaking to Cryheart, Greganth asks, "My thought mor en line with if we allow this man freedom, for work performed to cover the cost of the theft... could this man not have found such work prior to restoring to theivery?"

Speaking to Greganth, Guarrin says, "Interesting point."

Pukk asks, "Justice is the belief that fairness, mercy and equality should be applied to all. Regardless of race, status or Arkati. Is that right?"

Evia says, "Or if the work is available but the bread costs ten times the amount the work gives pay for, another example."

You say, "My story might turn folks a bit."

You poke Guarrin in the ribs.

Guarrin says, "Oh aye, let's pause for a moment."

Pukk asks, "Or is justice how we interprit our rights as a people and how we correct the wrongs, injustices, that we see?"

You say, "I want to share a relatively recent story of action in a decisive situation where mercy and justice was not shown."

You say, "I want to root us a bit more in specifics if I can interject."

You recite:

"The subject is Walkar Wellington during the end of the Talador War."

You say, "The Order was told not to intervene in that war. Talador attacked children and innocents with catapults so we joined the battle."

Umbazi asks, "Who told us not to intervene?"

You say, "When this war culminated in a defense and repulsion of Taladorian forces they started to retreat beyond their encampment and their camp followers, mostly women, innocents, cooks, blacksmiths and wagon trains."

Cryheart says, "Earl Jovery."

You nod at Cryheart.

Umbazi says, "Ah."

You say, "Walkar, who was mayor at the time, ordered any fleeing Taladorian killed. People joined him. He burned tents, killed women and murdered civilians in the opposing army."

You say, "The war was over. It's a time for mercy."

You say, "No more needed to die."

Speaking quietly to Guarrin, Kothos asks, "This is what resulted in Barrister Faerinn's family...?"

Speaking to Kothos, Guarrin whispers aloud, "I'm not entirely certain. Perhaps."

You say, "I knew Walkar well. It culiminated in us facing off against our Mayor for murdering innocent people in an act of vengence for them going to war, in ways a war Walkar started."

You say, "So we fought him and killed him in his blind rage or fit of madness only to see him rise as an armobed Abomination."

You ask, "So why did we do this? What drove us to intervene?"

Guarrin says, "Interesting question."

Falicor asks, "What if one was to posit that...instead of justice and mercy existing because of society, either of them instead existed despite it?"

Speaking to Peggyanne, Guarrin asks, "Did you have thoughts on Sir Geijon's question?"

Speaking to Guarrin, Peggyanne says, "Perhaps it was a feeling of injustice to our communal feeling of law, what was right and wrong to the community."

Speaking to Guarrin, Peggyanne says, "That by killing innocent woman and burning homes of non-combatants."

Pukk says, "So, it all boils down to this."

Pukk says, "Justice is the idea that we all must respect each other and recognize that we are all people and not just things."

Pukk asks, "Or is that actually what morality means?"

Alosaka says, "I think that's broader than justice."

Falicor says, "That is the trick of the code."

Falicor says, "They must all coexist."

Guarrin points at Falicor.

Guarrin touches one finger to his lips.

Speaking to Falicor, Guarrin says, "Giving away the entire series."

Pukk says, "And we must stop what we think is injustice."

Peggyanne says, "Perhaps justice is communal."

Lehon says, "The inocent should not have to pay for the sins of their leaders."

Roelaren says, "As gryphons we have made a vow to uphold Honor and be Honorable and Just, and the senseless killing of innocence is with honor or justice."

Roelaren says, "Is without honor."

Guarrin says, "Now at the start the topic of vengeance was mentioned."

Guarrin asks, "Can an act of vengeance be just?"

Akenna says, "Absolutely."

Speaking to Akenna, Guarrin asks, "Interesting. How so?"

Speaking to Akenna, Guarrin asks, "If justice is impartial, is vengeance not personal and thus partial?"

Speaking to Guarrin, Akenna says, "If society was perfect, would we have need of it? I would say no, leaders can be corrupt... communities can be lead astray."

Akenna says, "Sometimes one must do what is needed outside of a corrupt sense of justice."

Umbazi says, "Vengeance is not justice. It's what people do when they feel they cannot get justice by conventional means."

Akenna says, "However, one must be willing to accept its consquences."

Lehon says, "Defensive is not vengeance'it lacks justice."

Akenna says, "You will be painted, most likely, as the villian."

Speaking to Umbazi, Kothos says, "Riots are the voice of the voiceless."

Pukk says, "I don't care what the imps consider justice, what I consider justice is more important is that I think protecting the town and making sure we all can exist together fairly is what is important. Friends, family and townspeople. That is selfish and people in other lands will not think is right. But to me it is what is important. That is what I will fight for because if I see my town, friends or family trampled on, then I will stop it. That is my honor."

Speaking to Akenna, Guarrin asks, "Is that not just another shade of justice? To right an injustice?"

Speaking to Guarrin, Akenna says, "It is, I agree."

Akenna says, "I will pay for a crime, if I did it in the name of true justice."

Speaking to Akenna, Peggyanne asks, "But if justice is agreed to be a societal common law.... then is not the application of justice a majority?"

Speaking to Peggyanne, Guarrin asks, "That brings up the question of whether the application of justice can itself be unjust?"

Lehon says, "Have to abandon justice."

Speaking to Guarrin, Peggyanne says, "In a modern society when we belive in a system of justice.... then no one individual should be able to take justice into thier own hands."

Akenna asks, "What about a whole group?"

Speaking to Falicor, Guarrin says, "Go ahead, then we had a few people that had their hands up earlier."

Akenna asks, "Perhaps it is not one, perhaps it is many?"

Speaking to Guarrin, Peggyanne says, "And if they do it should be considered a betrayal of the very society that justice represents.... thereby making them a criminal as well."

Speaking to Tsarmina, Guarrin says, "You had your hand up earlier."

Tsarmina says, "The conversation has shifted a great deal since th en."

Tsarmina asks, "Whose definition of virtue, be it justice or compassion, is more important when there is a disagreement?"

Speaking earnestly to Tsarmina, Guarrin says, "Apologies for the delay."

Tsarmina asks, "In the case of justice, whose perspective of justice is more important when there is a disagreement on how it should be meted out? Is moral justice of greater importance than ethical justice?"

Tsarmina nods politely at Guarrin.

Speaking to Tsarmina, Goldstr exclaims, "Grand question!"

Guarrin says, "A fine question indeed."

You say, "I'd say the simplest approach. All we can do is make the best decision at hand in th' moment. It's foundational within those constructs, Tsarmina."

You say, "Sitting on th' porch here dictates how we react facing a demon or mad-god."

You say, "Or a goblin, or a bandit."

Tsarmina asks, "Do you mean demon literally?"

You say, "In that response, yes."

You say, "But usually it's a brigand or group of thieves."

Speaking to Elbromo, Guarrin says, "The floor is yours."

Elbromo asks, "Ah sorry for interjecting earlier..question..what is the difference betwixt 'Moral' and Ethincal'?"

Elbromo says, "Ethical sorry."

Lehon says, "My question as well."

Guarrin glances around the area.

Guarrin asks, "Any volunteers to field that one?"

Kothos raises his hand.

Tsarmina says, "I can answer it in the context of my question, if you'd like."

Speaking gratefully to Tsarmina, Kothos says, "I was hoping you might."

Tsarmina says, "Morality is the set of values you, the individual, possess."

Tsarmina says, "Ethics are the values that your society possesses."

Elbromo says, "Hmm."

Speaking to Elbromo, Guarrin asks, "A follow up?"

Elbromo asks, "So Morals based on spiritual or religious beliefs anf ethics as the result of applied logic ..isnt so?"

Guarrin says, "I would say morals do not need to be spiritual."

Guarrin says, "But may be so."

Elbromo says, "As a premminent basis."

You say, "Anything can be a guide or a lesson."

Elbromo says, "Okies I like Tsarminas clearity."

Elbromo says, "Thanks."

Guarrin says, "Alright with that, I think we're going to wrap up for the evening."

Guarrin says, "We've covered quite a bit tonight. Thank you all for attending and your contributions to the discussion, they're greatly appreciated. If we didn't get a chance to hear you tonight, I apologize, and I'll hang around after to continue the discussion if you wish."

Guarrin says, "Also, Sir Geijon had a few questions as well."

Cryheart says, "Aye, thanks for all for attending."

Alosaka says, "Thank you for presenting this discussion."